Tom Jenks PostManager
Hello! I am a graduate marine biologist heading into a specialisation of marine mammals! Here at Conduct Science I am lead of Team Kilo, we produce articles and The Conduct Science Podcast hosted by myself and Mitch. Come listen to us talk about a whole variety of topics, new episodes every Thursday! I also host an interview series called Under the Microscope where I talk to scientists from around the world in many different fields about their experience, work and methodologies. And as if that wasn’t enough content every Friday I release a short form podcast called The Method Section, this is aimed at scientists old and new looking at the community, methodologies and many other topical and interesting science news!
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Tom Jenks PostManager
Hello! I am a graduate marine biologist heading into a specialisation of marine mammals! Here at Conduct Science I am lead of Team Kilo, we produce articles and The Conduct Science Podcast hosted by myself and Mitch. Come listen to us talk about a whole variety of topics, new episodes every Thursday! I also host an interview series called Under the Microscope where I talk to scientists from around the world in many different fields about their experience, work and methodologies. And as if that wasn’t enough content every Friday I release a short form podcast called The Method Section, this is aimed at scientists old and new looking at the community, methodologies and many other topical and interesting science news!
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Intelligence – Timestamps

00:00 – Hello and welcome

01:43 – Factoids

20:54 – IQ

37:59 – Animal intelligence

41:20 – Tom’s dolphin rant

43:18 – Nature or nurture?

57:18 – Artificial Intelligence

1:01:30 – Rise of intelligence through society

1:03:28 – Ending and outro

You can listen to The Conduct Science Podcast by using the player above, searching for “The Conduct Science Podcast” on any place you listen to your podcasts, using any of the links below or you can download it HERE!

Links from the show:

  • – This is really creepy to be honest, anything that every could and has been written down already exists!
  • – take the same online IQ test that we did and see how you compare!
  • N-back task – This is a 3-back task, see how well you can remember if you saw the letters 3 sequences ago or not!
  • What colour is a mirror? – Video from the incredible YouTube channel Vsauce!
Episode Description

This week on The Conduct Science Podcast, Tom and Mitch turn the cogs of intelligence. They each reveal their scores on an IQ test and explain why it is or isn’t the best way to explore human intelligence. From animals to AI the world shows many signs of what could be intelligence, but is it? And how does intelligence arise, is it through the classic nature or nurture argument or is something larger at play? Music by: Joakim Karud –

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Tom:                      Hello Ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Conduct Science Podcast where today we are banging our heads against a metaphorical brick wall. If you want to check out all the latest goings on, you can head to you can find us on Facebook and Twitter by searching @conductscience. If you want to get in touch with us, suggest a guest, suggest a topic, ask a question that we can answer on this show. Please use the #ConductScience. I am your host Tom Jenks, but you know what they say two heads are better than one. So once again, joining me is Mitchell gatting.

Mitch:                   Hello there.

Tom:                      And today’s topic is intelligence. Uh, I don’t know if that’s the most fitting topic for us, but uh,

Mitch:                   Yeah, I feel we’re pretty severely lacking in it.

Tom:                      Well, I mean we’ve, we have sold and unravel the mysteries of the universe in the fall, in the previous episodes.

Mitch:                   And neurorobotics as well. We, uh, we solved that.

Tom:                      Yeah. And time and evolution. So basically we’ve covered it.

Mitch:                   Yeah. What, what is there more?

Tom:                      This is, this is the last, this is the holy grail. This is the last thing we can, uh, unravel for people befor a black hole that opens up

Mitch:                   and takes us all.

Tom:                      [Laughter]. Exactly. I got some factoides as usual. And I wasn’t too sure what to do about factoids on intelligence because it’s kind of like, so hard to define anyway. I mean, the research on what actually intelligence was, I went to the dictionary and I went, it’s not gonna be any used going any further than that. [Laughter].

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Um, I also did that.

Tom:                      So my first factoid is that, you know who Isaac Asimov is? I hope.

Mitch:                   Yes.

Tom:                      The father of Sci-Fi.

Mitch:                   Yes.

Tom:                      He wrote foundation. You’ve heard of foundation?

Mitch:                   Definitely.

Tom:                      Oh, okay. That’s it, that’s a wrap. Two minutes in and we are, we are giving up. Uh, Isaac Asimov wrote the, wrote the foundation series in 1962 or something. Uh, he’s kind of heralded as the father of Sci-Fi, a very famous writer. And He, for those of you out there who do know who he is, he was the vice president of a high IQ Society for a while. Um, which I thought was kind of interesting and wondering whether high, high IQ societies are still a thing or whether that’s just like a Scientology type deal. Is it a cult?

Mitch:                   What is the, the scientific institute?

Tom:                      Um, Mensa?

Mitch:                   Yeah. Mensa. That is the high IQ society.

Tom:                      Oh, okay.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Like that is, the only qualification for membership for Mensa is a high IQ.

Tom:                      What do they classify as a high IQ? And later we’ll determine whether we can get in?

Mitch:                   Yeah. Um, I, I don’t know. I think you’d have to. Okay. So it’s a nonprofit organization open to people who score at the 98th percentile or higher on a standardized supervised IQ or approved intelligence test.

Tom:                      Ah, it’s pretty hard to get in then. So he was the vice president of that essentially. [Laughter].

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. I don’t know what is, what, what is the 90th percentile of IQ then?

Tom:                      That’d be the top 2%.

Mitch:                   Oh, well done. Good job, Mr Sassy, man. [Laughter].

Tom:                      [Laughter]. That’s just me. Mate, that’s me using my intelligence.

Mitch:                   Okay. Oh sure. Yeah. But I meant like in numbers, what does, what does that, um, what does that mean?

Tom:                      Well the highest is like 162 or something, wasn’t it?

Mitch:                   That there are people that have like 210, so I’m not sure how youre judgin that.

Tom:                      Yeah? Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. No, yeah. Skip my judgment. Wow. 210? I suddenly feel a lot less smarter than I did before

Mitch:                   210. Kim Ung Yong who’s like this 19 year old, um, who could like form sentences pretty, pretty early on in his life bike a month maybe. Actually I dunno, um, but he is like, yeah, incredibly clever.

Tom:                      Wow. Okay.

Mitch:                   He started speaking when he was six months old. Imagine if you were his parents.

Tom:                      What would you do? You’d be like oh normally you get a year or two. We were escaping that and at six months he’s already like giving you jip back. You’re like, Oh, God it has started already. No fooling that kid.

Mitch:                   He was in university 16. Oh no, he declined enrollment to prestigious university in Korea at the age of16, but he declined to pursue a PhD in civil engineering.

Tom:                      Oh, that would be… That would be depressing. I mean, great for that kid. But I mean imagine you are doing your electrical engineering or whatever degree and you’re like, you know, 18, 19, 20 sat next to you, just 16 year old kid doing it twice as better than you that be a bit demoralizing.

Mitch:                   It’s a bit demoralizing then like to the point now I think I would think about it, it’d be like, okay, well I’m going to do stuff in my life that’s going to benefit me, but this kid is going to benefit things for the human race. So you do you sir, create something that’s going to get us into space.

Tom:                      That’s fair, befreiend this impressionable 16 year old, um, follow him around as he travels into space.

Mitch:                   And I was going to say, Kim, his parents wanted to homeschool him. But in Korea you have to apply to do that. It’s not like in the UK where you can just take them out of school and then they got declined. Quite rightly, I think.

Tom:                      Yeah, it’s, it’s not something when you’ve got such a, I guess a especially young kids and if he’s so intelligent, you don’t want to jeopardize that through your own lack of the ability to teach. But I don’t think I could ever do that. If you had a kid, would you ever homeschooled them?

Mitch:                   Um no. I think that there’s a lot to gain from, um, getting them to socialize cause it, there’s always intelligence, which you can like, like, uh, academic intelligence that you can teach them at home, but there’s like emotional, I would say intelligence, which like empathy and things and social intelligence that you just can’t get from homeschooling.

Tom:                      That’s a thing actually that I, I think very rightly said, is in all of my research, does it intelligence and everything that always came down to like IQ and what we think of as intelligence. We measure other animals against our envisage of intelligence. And it never comes down to this empathetic or emotional intelligence either.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Um, when I was doing research for like, um, what intelligence meant and ways of defining it. The one thing I came across is the way that we sort of scale it now compared to, um, a couple of decades ago. Uh, now we see people that are intelligent are what we need for in society. So, um, if you’re pretty good at analyzing data and analytical things and logic and reasoning, that’s more important now because we’ve moved to like it and big data. Um, but back in the day it was, um, like linguistic skills. Um, how good you are at writing was like a key factor of how intelligent you were and, how many words you knew and that sort of things.

Tom:                      That makes sense actually. I’d never thought of it like that.

Mitch:                   Yeah, it, it, yeah, it was the problem I came across when I was doing research for like what is intellect? What is intelligence? Yeah. It, there was some things that like didn’t make sense.

Tom:                      That’s cool. So the next factor is people with higher IQs are more likely to worry. I don’t know why. Uh, and I don’t think if you’re worried, it means you have a high IQ.

Mitch:                   I think. because if you, if you imagine again with chess.

Tom:                      Yeah, anxiety ridden, chess.

Mitch:                   Anxiety ridden chess makes me just very uncomfortable playing chess. Um, if you’re able to think of all the possible moves that can happen and you can keep them in your head, that gives you, relating that to say like you’re thinking about possibilities, about a negative situation, you can think about and keep multiple avenues of what potentially could happen in your head at once.

Tom:                      Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Mitch:                   Yeah, I worry all the time. So I must be a genius.

Tom:                      You must be, mate, you must be the pinnacle of human intellect. So, so apart from that, I, I was a bit like, okay, well there’s a couple of IQ related facts, but the other things, I was like, well, I’m just gonna say some pretty cool things that we have done as humans to kind of mark our intelligence, I guess. So 2000 years ago, uh, I’m gonna absolutely butch this name. So anyone who speaks Latin, I apologize. Eratosthenes predicted the circumference of the earth within a couple of kilometers, 2000 years ago. So I think that was pretty impressive. And just shows intelligence kind of at the time. Um, nowadays the kind of intelligence is maybe sometimes even not AI based but computer based, algorithmically based. Have you heard of the, the tower of Babel from the Bible?

Mitch:                   Yes I have

Tom:                      Do you know, the library of Babel?

Mitch:                   Babel, I just wanna.

Tom:                      Babel. Sorry. Yeah, correct me there. Uh, the library of Babel, have you heard of that?

Mitch:                   Also the tower of Babel, uh, the library of Babel. No, I haven’t, is that very much the same thing?

Tom:                      It is, but it’s a different, so it’s a website. You can go to the Um, you can go there and it has like a virtual library that you can look through and in its books are every single combination of letters that ever could be and will be. So you, and there’s like a search function. You can type in any sentence. You could type in this what I’m saying exactly right now and it will be in a book somewhere. It will take you to the exact position, page and book and shelf and room in this virtual library that that sentence is written out in. So everything that you will say, everything that you have said, everything that you have thought or ever will be said ever is already written down.

Mitch:                   Okay. I’m going to test this with some things I’ve got. I’ve got the website up, I shall test it.

Tom:                      Go for it.

Mitch:                   What should I go for? What sort of random things would I say?

Tom:                      Let’s try and think of something that’s never really been uttered before.

Mitch:                   Oh, I was going to go for like “for breakfast I have pancakes”.

Tom:                      Okay. Yeah, I mean go for it. No, hang on. “For breakfast, Mitchell Gatting had pancakes”.

Mitch:                   Okay. Just going to DOX me. It’s okay.

Tom:                      I say that every, uh, every, start every episode.

Mitch:                   “For breakfast Mitchell Gatting had pancakes”. No spaces?

Tom:                      You can do spaces if you want.

Mitch:                   Exact match. Okay. Wow.

Tom:                      You could type in every little thing about your life that nobody else knows and it will be in there.

Mitch:                   Ah, that’s, well, that’s awfully creepy.

Tom:                      It’s scary, isn’t it?

Mitch:                   Oh Geez, there’s, there’s, and it’s not even one. There’s many, many matches. There’s 20 of 10 to the power of 29 different matches.

Tom:                      There you go. It’s weird, isn’t it?

Mitch:                   Yeah. That’s pretty cool.

Tom:                      I thought that was a really cool little fact. Uh, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve known about it for a couple of years now, but it’s one of those things you kind of play around with for a bit and then forget. But yeah, go check it out at Very interesting.

Mitch:                   Yeah. And you can download, you can download the page that is on as well. So you’ve got all this like random nothingness. And then if you like control f to find you type in a letter, you can then find it within, yeah.

Tom:                      Yeah it’s just suddenly there, and like all of you could, if you typed in the whole of a book, like the Lord of the rings, you’d find it written there as well. So technically every book is already been written and it’s just finding it. So, if that doesn’t make you doubt existence, I don’t know what does, do you have any factoids this week?

Mitch:                   I’ve go a few. A few facts. Um, a couple of them. A few of them are animal facts. Animal intelligent facts and then I’ve got another fact. So if you didn’t know crows have the intelligence of what would be compared to as about a seven year old in humans. And um, they can remember faces and hold grudges forever.

Tom:                      Yeah. It’s a, there’s something that can be kind of think of as being remarkably human, isn’t it? When we realize with intelligent animals like crows, they can remember human faces and as you say, hold a grudge against people who have wronged them.

Mitch:                   Yeah. So when like he read in books where it’s like, Oh, the crows are following me. Like they, they legit could be just following you to mess with you. Yeah and the secondary fact about crows is that, do you know, what Aesops Fable paradigm is?

Tom:                      I do not

Mitch:                   It’s where. Food is placed floating on water in a, in a tube and there’s like rocks scattered around and to get the food out you have to put the rocks into the water and it raises the water level so you can get your food. Crows successfully managed to work out how to get out and completed this task, which shows like they have a very high intelligence for an animal.

Tom:                      And they do it very quickly as well. I watched a, I actually watched a youtube video of a crow being tested for the very first time this and there was literally about, I don’t know, 10 seconds between it looking at the rocks and this tube of water and it doing it. It wasn’t long at all. I mean, obviously they don’t understand the physics of water displacement, but I’m sure they understand the input, output. Cause and effect. Yeah, exactly.

Mitch:                   My, my second factor is about dolphins. As we know, dolphins are the second smartest animals on earth. Second only to humans. Apparently we’re the smartest. I would argue we’re not. But you know,

Tom:                      There’s something we can come onto.

Mitch:                   Um, yeah. And they learn very complex things very quickly. Um, and it’s to do with Dolphin society is very complex. There’s lots of rules and how like groups function and click within dolphins. They can use tools. Their language of whistling very complex. Even though it seems like whistles would be quite simple. There’s like a lot of sort of frequency changes in the sort of things. And one of an incredible example of intelligence like exhibited by dolphins is at the Institute of Marine Mammal Studies in Mississippi. Dolphins were given rewards for collecting trash out of pools and they were given fish in return. That itself is quite clever cause that’s a learned behavior and you could think what’s the dog drooling?

Tom:                      Pavlov conditioning

Mitch:                   Yeah. Powerful conditioning. That’s kind of like in that domain and you think, okay, well that’s, that’s intelligent but not amazing. Well they went a step further as these dolphins. Would get the trash and break it into smaller pieces to then hand to the, um, the one of the scientists that were carrying out the study to get more treats.

Tom:                      Oh really? That was pretty cool.

Mitch:                   Yeah. And I was like, ah, that’s pretty, pretty cool. And it shows that they have like an actual understanding on the process of what’s happening. They’re not just like being conditioned. They know that handing this over it gets in the tree and that they’re planning for it to happen so they can get more, which is, yeah.

Tom:                      Yeah. I have a couple of things about dolphins. So there was a story, I think maybe this was in America somewhere, I can’t remember the Ocean Institute of somewhere. There’s a calf called Dolly. And through the glass she saw someone smoking and like the cloud of smoke come up. So she went to her mother, suckled some milk, came back to the glass and blew the milk out to like simulate smoke coming round. So they, they can, you can show that they, like they’ve got that they can look at something and go, oh I can do something. I know where to get it there. There’s a real thought process there. And with dolphins, with bottlenose dolphins, especially, they, um, what they’ll do is basically they’ll say their name before they say something. So they have a signature whistle, which is equivalent to their name. So it would be like, if I speak out into the open, I’d say Tom, and then what I want to say so everyone knows is me who said it. And then what they can do is they can use that to seemingly, they will copy someone else’s whistle and say something on their behalf. So other people like push them out of the pod or stop them getting as much food or so that they can get in a better position to get food or to mates. So it shows they have like this other theory of mind that they know that other people or other dolphins I guess are thinking.

Mitch:                   Oh yeah, not to sound dolphin-ist but they probably do that cause they will look the same.

Tom:                      Wow. You leave the dolphins alone.

Mitch:                   Well a lot of the, they’re, they’re, they’re designed to look identical to each other aren’t they? With their genetics?So it would be like if all, like if all humans looked all the same, apart from, I don’t know, they’ve got wear and tear that if you didn’t know that they had that wear and tear, you won’t be able to identify them. We would probably start our sentences with, okay, well my name is Mitchell. [Laughter].

Tom:                      They’re an acoustic based animal aren’t they. I mean if you is like if you, if you don’t spend a lot of time around dogs, for example, Black Labradors, if you see a group of them to you that all look the same but then you spend a lot of time with them, you’ll start to realize how individual they actually look and behave.

Mitch:                   Yeah. But say that you went to, let’s say that you went to a, like a, like an office that was all black labs. You would struggle to be like if they’re all sat working to be like, yeah, that one’s Steve over there. The black lab who’s working on that excel sheet?

Tom:                      Well you might eventually, I don’t know. I think eventually you pick up these social cues of differences and things and you know that the researcher, who spend lots of time with dolphins can tell them individually just by looking at them. So if we can do it, I presume that they can do it. Uh, it would be a presumption.

Mitch:                   Yeah. My third animal fact is to do with rats.

Tom:                      Oh, rats. Cyborg rats.

Mitch:                   No not cyborg rats, well kinda… a bit. It’s, it’s computer related. So rats have memories that I like computers. That’s not to say that they’re super quick and they can, they’re really good at maths is to say that, um, their brains have, uh, like a ram section. Okay. Which is the, the random access memory that store like information in an ongoing process that then wipes every now and then to keep up with like, um, so of things that happen immediately. So it gives them like a quick response time to certain things. Um, and then over time then they can like then work their memories into their long term. Yeah. I was like, that’s pretty cool. You have like a, a memory buffer.

Tom:                      I could do with a memory buffer.

Mitch:                   Yeah. It’s like short term memory for us humans, but super short.

Tom:                      Yeah. Just allows you to dip in for an extra bit of power.

Mitch:                   Yeah. If you, if you want that boost mathematical processing.

Tom:                      Cognitiv boost.

Mitch:                   Yeah. My final fact, which is about IQ, which leads us is a good segue, is that it’s estimated that every year of education adds two to three points to a student’s IQ.

Tom:                      Oh really? What if you’re already a 210 IQ like Kim?

Mitch:                   Um, well if you’re… Technically they’re off the scale. I think the scale, which you rightly said earlier it goes to 160. These people are perceived to have higher IQ. Like people like Einstein only had I say, only had an IQ of like 160.

Tom:                      Yes. Uh, but also the scale on which we measure IQ now is totally different. Um, cause if you’re measuring someone from the 1900 IQ, the average IQ nowadays is what we would consider to be 70 but obviously back then it was what they considered to be 100. So being 50 years back, you know, maybe you could taper it down even bit more.

Mitch:                   I think 70 nowadays is um, perceived learning difficulties I think.

Tom:                      Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So being, being humans, we, uh, we want, we want to know what intelligence is and we try and categorize it. And so we kind of come to IQ is what, when you say intelligence, people think of IQ often, don’t they? I think as being the, the marker for what, how we measure intelligence. Iit’s like a quantitative way.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Cause it was, yeah. I think I think a lot, if you would ask someone if they were like, oh, I’ve got a high IQ, they’d probably look at you like you’re a weirdo. And they’d be like, good, good for you.

Tom:                      NERD!

Mitch:                   Oh No. It’s not even a nerd. It’s like a good for you. But most of us don’t care about IQ. Like if you’re, went up to a random person in the street, they, they wouldn’t know what their IQ is and they won’t like really care about it.

Tom:                      No, I don’t think I’ve, I’ve never cared about it or wanted to know what mine was. But if someone says to me, Oh, this person’s smart. The only way I could think to test that would be through IQ.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Okay. I can understand the, yeah, cause in my opinion. There’s a difference between smart and intelligent though.

Tom:                      Oh, 100%. Are you saying that like you measures smartness?

Mitch:                   No, not at all.

Tom:                      Okay. Right. So for those of you don’t know what IQ is, I mean score the intelligence quotient, and it’s the sum of the score of several standardized tests developed by psychologists. It covers verbal, perception, memory, arithmetic and processing speed speeds. Sorry. I think the average score is around 99/100 there is in America and 85 are 70% of people get between 85 and 115 and 95% of people get between 70 and 130 and as you said, 70 a score of 70 is special needs? Considered bordering.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Presence of a developmental learning disability.

Tom:                      There we go. And 130 and above is gifted?

Mitch:                   Indicated giftedness. Yeah.

Tom:                      Okay. There we go. But obviously as with all tests, especially in psychology, there are some problems associated with it. It’s, it’s not the most accurate thing. Depending on the day, the questions can be quite biased in themselves depending on what they are asking. Who’s answering.

Mitch:                   Yeah. There’s things like language barriers as well. Like a lot of IQ tests are done in English. So if you’re a non native speaker you could struggle with like the, if Jane lives north of Sarah and Sarah lives east of Terry and Terry lives north-northwest. And you can be, you can get like if you struggle with like just general English, then it’s going to trip you up.

Tom:                      Yeah. Cause you gotta translate it and then you got to think about it and then you yeah. Nightmare.

Mitch:                   Yeah and environmental where you’re taking it some don’t like, some people can’t work under like test conditions and struggle but are intelligent.

Tom:                      Yeah. But then you gotta think how else would you do it unless it was like timed I guess. So it’s hard to make it standardized, I guess in that sense for everyone. And then of course, like a lot of these kinds of tests nowadays are done on computers, keyboards. So if you’ve got someone who’s much better, who much more well accustomed to a keyboard and mouse than someone else’s, they’re going to be able to answer a tiny bit quicker, which may add up over the course of the test,

Mitch:                   Which I think they add some time as a buffer into the online ones for it. Okay. Like, uh, we both did an IQ test.

Tom:                      We did one in preparation for this show just to see what that would be like. Uh, what was the site we did it on?

Mitch:                   Um, it was, let me The reason I bring it up is I like, we’re both quite affluent at computers. Um, so going through like the test boxes, I was just tabbing through them and entering numbers on the keypad.

Tom:                      Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mitch:                   But if you, if you’re not like that way inclined, you are gonna be clicking on the boxes, going to the number row across the top, clicking it, coming to go back to the mouse, going to the next box and working it out.

Tom:                      Yeah. Yeah. You could waste a lot of time about accidentally not hitting the box and then you have to go back and hit it again or yeah.

Mitch:                   Yeah. There’s, there’s, there’s issues with it. Well, technical like actual doing the, uh, the test itself, uh, carrying it out. There’s also issues with it. Full Stop.

Tom:                      Yeah. You could have internet issues, you could have hardware issues. Like it’s, uh, basically we are very much setting up for if we did badly.

Mitch:                   These, these are excuses are they?

Tom:                      Oh yeah.

Mitch:                   Well I, I carried out two different ones. Uh, I did one at like a break at work in an environment that I wasn’t particularly comfortable in and I did one earlier today where I like sat down in a closed environment in a comfortable environment and re-did it.

Tom:                      Okay. Yeah. So I came up with the idea when was it on Friday. And so I messaged you, I did it just after I messaged you. Right so who wants to go first?

Mitch:                   I sent, I sent mine to you on the, the uh, the group chat.

Tom:                      Oh, you did. You did send it me but I didn’t open it cause I was like, I’m just going to look at it. If I, uh, I want it to be a surprise on the show, so

Mitch:                   Well you can, you can open it up and then see what, see what you. We’ll see what you think.

Tom:                      Okay. Damn son. Fair play.

Mitch:                   I was incredibly surprised about my score.

Tom:                      Oh, I see them. I was happy with mine and then you go do that. Uh, all right. So I guess I’ll go first and Mitch can gloat afterwards. So as we just said, 70 a score of 70 is bordering on mental difficulties, learning disabilities, that kind of thing. And then 130 and above is mentally gifted or in a very, very intelligent, I guess. So I was very happy with my school when I was going through it. I felt incredibly stupid. However, I got a school of 139.

Mitch:                   That’s pretty, that’s pretty good though. That’s your bordering on the highest range of intelligence there.

Tom:                      Yeah. I don’t, I don’t know if I make it into the top 2%.

Mitch:                   Okay. Get your, uh, your application for Mensa in now Tom!

Tom:                      Yeah, I’m basically preparing myself. I think I’m just, I’m like just off the high.

Mitch:                   Yeah, the high high’s high is 140.

Tom:                      Yeah. Um, and then, so my left brain is 66, so the left brain is like maths language, uh, logic and all of that. The right brain is more creative. I scored a 58 on that.

Mitch:                   What sort of break down did you. What’s like, what’s, what’s the worst bit of your left brain?

Tom:                      That I haven’t gone through. Uh, I didn’t, I didn’t screenshot that. I’ll see if I can find it. Go through yours and I’ll see if I can find mine.

Mitch:                   So apparently I got 147 which I was very, very surprised at.

Tom:                      Check this guy out.

Mitch:                   Which apparently puts me in the highest genius rang of intelligence. Which I wish was one of the reasons that I very, I disagree with IQ tests being a good measure of intelligence because there are things that I very much struggle with that you could deem as like a would be common knowledge or simple spellings of simple words that I, I just can’t, I just don’t get right or I, I struggle with.

Tom:                      That’s fair. I think I agree with you cause there’s certain things that I have for the life of me, no matter how much I can’t spell restaurant, half the time. I forget where the “au” goes or guarantee always gets me.

Mitch:                   Okay. This is, I’m going to little bit of the Mitchell, some, some insight into the childhood of a Mitchell Gatting. Growing up I had a problem with B’s and D’s and when I was writing them out and I would always get them back to front and the wrong around. So instead of writing bad, I would write dab like that. It’s like

Tom:                      Mitchell dabbing through his childhood.

Mitch:                   Yeah. My parents had so like make like a a reminder card for me to like train me to get the D’s and the B’s the right way round. And there’ll be certain times now that’ll be, I’ll be writing like lazy writing and I’ll just automatically, if you get it wrong, and that’s why I think the IQ test is, is not a great indicator.

Tom:                      But that’s if you’re taking the in intelligence is a factor of being able to write or spell where that’s not the only contributing thing and they don’t even test spelling in this, do they?

Mitch:                   Yeah. Which is which, which is really strange because for me, okay, this, this is why there’s a, there’s a discrepancy between IQ test and intelligence. For like the way that I think about it personally because IQ test is showing that you’re good at doing an IQ test and it’s a good measure of your current intelligence for doing these tasks now. So it could, if you then did some trainings and brain training, it would be a good reference to see if you did better, if that makes sense.

Tom:                      Like if you just did them over and over and over, which you could, you could effectively improve your IQ even if you weren’t actually.

Mitch:                   Yeah. So you could do that. But if you went away and trained and I mean it’s a good reference point to see how you’re doing with the basic skills. It’s just not a very good intelligence describer. So going through it, my left brain, my memory 48 wasn’t good.

Tom:                      Oh my memory is awful.

Mitch:                   Yeah, I got six and that was it. Of those symbols that like there a like an array of symbols they have to remember like 20 of them on wrote the six.

Tom:                      I remembered like the first four in the last two I think. I don’t know how my brain did that, but I did.

Mitch:                   That was my lowest. Word comprehension was 87 which is high. And I think that was a test where there were four words and you had to pick the one that didn’t make sense out of those four words.

Tom:                      Uh, yeah. Um, I got a very good for spatial recognition. Uh, there was like a Big Square and you have to cut up the squares to make smaller shapes. That was my highest I think.

Mitch:                   Yeah, I’ve got 93 on that one. It was. It was that one. And it was the uh, one before where you had the, the, the symbols, the five symbols and you had to pick the one that was the old one out. Which is very interesting that that’s not an IQ test because going for job interviews in my sector and which is like technology assurance, that sort of stuff. That is part of the job interview process is they get you to do like a whole booklet of 40 of them and then yeah, that’s a way of that where they like narrow people down cause it’s a good indicator of um, visual reasoning and logical reasoning.

Tom:                      I guess a using standardized IQ test things is not the worst way. If you want to figure out how people work, if you want a visual reasoning person, someone who can spot the odd things out very quickly, why, why not employ that test?

Mitch:                   But I now wish that you would refer to me as the genius Mitchell Gatting.

Tom:                      The Genius Mitchell Gatting. Oh, of course I’ll refer to you as my Lord and the silo of the podcast. [Laughter].

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Please, please do. Please no, please don’t. I, I doubt this is accurate in any shape of the world.

Tom:                      You’re going to get lots of emails now asking you to go do lots of science-based talks. At lots of different universities.

Mitch:                   I heard a, I heard you got asked to do one Tom.

Tom:                      Not at all mate, not at all.

Mitch:                   But yeah, well above, well above a hundred is like you’re doing good. And I think anybody that has like gone to uni or has further education would be able to get above a hundred.

Tom:                      You say that. But I met some people [Laughter]. And I’m gunna leave it at that.

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Ooh, let me just say a no.

Tom:                      Yeah, you, you could be surprised. You can be very surprised and to just make myself feel even worse. I found that there was a three year old who was accepted on to do an IQ test and she got a score of 160.

Mitch:                   Who was that?

Tom:                      It was that Alexis Martin, three-year-old who had an IQ of 160.

Mitch:                   is that the, the younger version though. Cause they always, there’s this thing about babies being geniuses when they’re born and it’s like a thing that they are creative and whatnot. There’s that, this may be a specific case, but there’s the whole like everybody’s geniuses until they’re six and then they do the test again and then only 50% of them because they, you learn how to do things, and you lose your creativeness. Which I disagree. I just agree with, I don’t know how they would be able to test young children’s ability to be geniuses. The way that they tested it was…

Tom:                      Genius for their age, just not mean geniuses for being a genius for the sake of it.

Mitch:                   They give them, I think they give them like a paperclip and then be like, oh, how many different uses can you make out of this paper clip? And then an older person it’d be like, well it’s a paperclip. You hold paper together with it and it, but the younger people is like, well you can pull it apart, you can make a bracelet of it, you can do all these things. And that’s like they have greater creative intelligence because they can come up with more things. It makes sense to me. I’m just like, it was created for a purpose just to let it, let it do it. Don’t break it.

Tom:                      How did you get 147? With thinking like that? So the IQ is also kind of looked down upon I guess by some people because it looks at how much data your brain can hold and how fast it can process it essentially. And it ignores everything else. And I think a theme that we’ve kind of touched on a little bit, quite a lot, and I think I’ll touch on again later, is how important social life is to intelligence. And I think that’s might be the underpinning factor of where we see intelligence arise.

Mitch:                   So you’re talking about environmental learning.

Tom:                      Yeah. And also in terms of evolution as well, like itelligence sprung up through societal learning. Maybe.

Mitch:                   Well it goes, go, goes back to or episode five? With the language.

Tom:                      Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Cause I was thinking, you know, neanderthals, chimps, they can use tools, they create hand-axes. But as I said in that episode, they had the same handaxe for a hundred thousand years. It never improved. Whereas through society and cumulative and cultural learning, we are nowadays, especially with the Internet, we don’t have to learn about things as we go along. We are literally standing on the shoulders of all the mistakes and the triumphs that everyone’s had before us. So we’re starting at the end point and going on from there. So our intelligence is bound to be higher and they’ve shown that our IQ or average IQ is much higher now than it was a hundred years ago because a hundred years ago we lived in like a very small world and we kind of made decisions on what benefited us. Whereas now we, we very much entertain the hypothetical or what would this be like kind of thing. And a hundred years ago they though, this is a famous experiment where they asked people that hypothetical questions. So he went to like in America people who, someone who hunt bears and he was like “in the North Pole there is always snow where it is white. The bears are white too. What colors are the bears in the North Pole?” And he couldn’t answer the question. He couldn’t say that the bears were white because they just had no concept of entertaining the hypothetical situation. So they said brown or they said, why are you even asking me this question? Which I thought was just interesting.

Mitch:                   Do you know what color black bears are? No. Polar bears. Do you know what colours they are?

Tom:                      Their skin is black. Their fur is like transparent. Yeah.

Mitch:                   I got into a debate with someone at work with this. And they’re like, just transparent. Was it, was it white? Then I was like, okay, well if you get like a binder that you hold papers in like the see-through ones and you get loads. Look, silver doesn’t it? When you put loads and loads together. Cause that’s how light works. It refracts it slightly. Yeah.

Tom:                      Did you, uh, this is the most random factor probably ever come like tangent I’ll ever come out with what color is a mirror?

Mitch:                   Uh, isn’t it blue?

Tom:                      No, it’s green.

Mitch:                   Yeah, that’s what I meant. Like a turqoisey-tint-blue.

Tom:                      Green [Laughter].

Mitch:                   Bluey-green. It’s not actually a green, it’s a bluey-green. Cause if you look at the side of it, it’s turquoise.

Tom:                      Yeah. It’s that color. If you’ve got two mirrors and put them opposite each other and you create like a mirror or a tunnel, uh, eventually you’ll see it kind of fade into greenness as the like photons run out of energy. And yeah it’s green.

Mitch:                   Oh, for that reason. Okay.

Tom:                      But maybe, you know Vsauce?

Mitch:                   Yep.

Tom:                      They did a, they did a video on it that you can go watch. Very interesting.

Mitch:                   Hi Michael, Vsauce here.

Tom:                      Uh, so I want to talk about animals for a little bit like intelligence or animals because we think of

Mitch:                   [Whispers] Such an animal nerd.

Tom:                      Oh, mate I am! Deal with it.

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Which is fair enough.

Tom:                      We think of, you know, intelligence being a very human thing and we, because consciousness and things that we term to do with intelligence, like empathy, emotion, consciousness, intelligence, even within itself, we think of them as being human things because that is our existence and we, it’s a very anthropomorphosized trait intelligence. Because we can only experience it the way that we, and you know, Darwin thought about this and he saw earthworms making choices to bring leaves into their burrows in different ways. And he was like, it’s very similar to how humans make different choices to bring their furniture into their house. I don’t know why he made that comparison, but he did. So he was like, maybe intelligence derives from instincts. It’s an emergent property. And like, as you said, crows could displace water to get rewards. Like chimps can use tools, they can engage in deception. Did you know, Alex, the great African parrot? Ever heard of him? He was like a bit of an Internet sensation, great African parent or a big gray parrot and he could speak English pretty well. And he understood abstract ideas like bigger and smaller, and he could use the words correctly and he could communicate about things that weren’t in the room anymore, which lots of animals can’t do. But obviously he didn’t maybe understand or he did. It’s so hard to say whether he understood the words or not. But then if you look at like neurons, the neurons in a worm or in a jellyfish or anything very similar to ours, they’re preserved incredibly well through evolution. So maybe then you’ve gotta is intelligence, consciousness, whatever, a emergent property of the structure. Because if you look at lots of higher invertebrates brains, they have very similar structures. Did you know, here’s something I found out. Sad but funny. You can give a crayfish and anxiety disorder by shocking it whenever it tries to leave the rock that lives under. And then you can treat it with the same medicine that we use to treat anxiety disorders and it goes away and it comes out as rock straight away.

Mitch:                   Why ethically was this found? [Laughter].

Tom:                      Well, you know, I think it is this through doing the test, it’s not like massive shocks. It’s through testing. Do animals perceive, what do they perceive? We know they feel pain, even fish feel pain.

Mitch:                   Dubious.

Tom:                      Um, what’s dubious? Sorry.

Mitch:                   Oh, the ethical nature of that test.

Tom:                      Oh highly, highly dubious. But I mean, as a, I was watching a ted talk on what do animals think and feel and he kept saying, what do we do to animals that you know, feel and think consciously. We fry them mainly lobsters. Fish like dogs we do not want on the street. We were not the most empathetic towards other sentient creatures, I guess. Uh, elephants can categorize between humans just by the sound of their voice. They, they, if you like record loads of tourists and play the music or the sound through a speaker, they’ll stay where they are basically play the sound of herders. They’ll get really agitated, suddenly move away, which means they categorize humans by their noise between good and bad. There’s one, have you seen the cove

Mitch:                   No.

Tom:                      It’s a docu-series about Japan and they have a secret kind of cove where they killed hundreds dolphins every year.

Mitch:                   Oh yeah. I know of that cove.

Tom:                      Yeah. There’s a documentary called the cove. Absolutely. Yeah. Really good documentary. Very sad at the same time. Uh, but it follows Rick O’Barry who was a dolphin trainer for flipper. You have watched flipper?

Mitch:                   No.

Tom:                      Basically a TV series basically like lassie, but it was dolphins instead. Okay. And four Dolphins played flipper and he kept one of them in his, like in Salt Lake, in his garden that backed onto the sea. And he used to take the TV out and roll up to the lake. And Kathy, the Dolphin in his garden would recognize when she was the one on the TV. And then one day she was perfectly healthy and everything and in his arms just decided to not breathe anymore. He said she committed suicide. I know It’s a very strong word for an animal. But he termed it because, well she was healthy and they have to consciously breathe and she just didn’t, she just chose not to breathe anymore. So it comes to that point where it’s are we, we, we think of ourselves as this much more intelligent maybe because we can do things. And one of the most annoying things I find people will often say is, oh, dolphins aren’t intelligent. Have you see them build a city? Like I was like, have you seen a dolphin? How could it build anything with his flippers? Do you know what I mean we can, we can do things cause we have thumbs and hands. How could a dolphin possibly, no matter how intelligent it was, build something.

Mitch:                   I feel like we need to put a trigger warning on for you. For anything involving dolphins

Tom:                      Probably true. Yeah. Oh I went down the rabbit hole that rant over.

Mitch:                   Bringing this back. So what you were saying before, do you think intelligence is nature natural or a mixture of both? Do you think intelligence is genetic? Is it learnt?

Tom:                      To a degree to a degree. So they’ve done lots of studies on twins and twins. Very interesting to study I think purely because you can, they’re not the most common thing. And they can be put, not ethically, but they have been put in different scenarios to see how different they are. They turn out and so if you take identical twins, assume their genetics are exactly the same. You can have one that comes out smarter and one that comes out not so smart, even within the same house, the same environment, that they will inevitably be put under slightly different environmental pressures. Causing different types of levels of intelligence I guess. So I thought I’d say both. What do you think?

Mitch:                   I think, um, the way that we’re, determining intelligence here I would say it was a bit of both as well. Um, just because, yeah, it’s, but I, was reading about one guy that was, determining what intelligence was and it he involved like the, um, the environment with which you’re born into actually plays a role in intelligence because you start at like a, a place that you can do better at. So if, if your poor or you come from a poor household, not to say like all poor people are unintelligent, you start at a disadvantage and therefore intelligence is also can also be a gauge of, um, sort of your upbringing. Does that make sense?

Tom:                      Okay. Yeah, that makes sense for sure.

Mitch:                   Which, yeah, it is like, I can see why. That is the case a bit sad. It’s a bit saddening that as the case though, if it affects people.

Tom:                      Yeah. Unfortunately it does make sense in a way because if they can’t afford to take them to university or something like that as well, that also impacts potentially their growth because they just can’t afford to go. Not because they don’t want to, but because they can’t afford to. And especially if you look in, I guess we’re lucky in this country where schooling is a right and you, you know, you just get to go, you have to right.

Mitch:                   Yeah if you don’t, your parents go to jail.

Tom:                      Yeah. And whereas in other countries you can only go if you pay for it, especially in developing countries and they just can’t afford to, they have to work instead. So they become very knowledgeable in their trade, in their work line of work. But miss out on this, I guess general knowledge that you acquire through school.

Mitch:                   Yeah. And this sort of fact I was reading online that to do with like the negative impacts of IQ is that um, that, well the test itself is, the information surrounding is very controversial because it can be used to advance like racist agendas in like places where American were sort of, um, ethnic minorities don’t have it as well as other people. They go, okay, well their income is lower so they are poorer. So therefore using the IQ with their environment, they’re all, their IQs are going to be lower. So these people are just not as smart and then furthering their like discriminatory views based on that. So that there are some negative effects that can come from classifying a group of people using IQ.

Tom:                      Oh, very. And I think that’s just unfortunately negative effect of being human. We like to classify things. Yeah, no, that’s unfortunate I think and something hopefully we’ll get over one day. As a society.

Mitch:                   I’ve got two more interesting points to bring up. The first one, which is very important is more like a talking point is do you think that is a cap or an upper limit to an individual’s intelligence? When I was doing research with this, there was lots of to do with like, oh, is there a cap to human intelligence? And I was like, I don’t really care about the human race for this research topic. Like do you think that you as an individual have a limit?

Tom:                      So I know you don’t want to a race but I’d say as a race, yes. So I’d have to say as an individual.Yes. I’m not too hard to my neuro anatomy and neuroscience, so I’m not sure how that all works but I would presume. It would be to do with making connections, your ability to make connections, but surely you can only make a certain amount of connections. And furthering from that, our brain can only grow to a certain size. Right. Like genetically, physically you can only get to a certain size. I know size isn’t everything. [Laughter].

Mitch:                   brilliant. Uh, well no it is to do with brains. Yeah. It’s size matters of brains to body. It’s the ratio compared to body ratio. Yeah.

Tom:                      Um, but I know it obviously within an individual it can’t grow too much apart from the norm. So I’d say that yes it must be kept. But I’m unsure of the underlying process.

Mitch:                   Yeah. Cause I was having this thought going through this section. It’s not, it’s a weird thing to think about because you’re just thinking about the ability to think. It’s very, very, very confusing. And when I was thinking, I was like, they must, there must be like a limit for people, like certain people to get to with certain subjects. Cause due to either environmental or genetic, they just can’t go past that point.

Tom:                      Yeah. I mean like if you were studying a topic, cybersecurity for example. You could learn more and more and more, but does that make you more intelligent or more knowledgeable? It makes you more knowledgeable because you’ve got more information. Does that make you more intelligent?

Mitch:                   Depends what you are knowledgeable in I would suppose so. If you say that you are doing

Tom:                      Or is the process of learning itself makes you intelligent because you can link more things together and have a higher concept of what might be.

Mitch:                   Maybe. Say, let’s say that you were doing some programming and you were doing some high end programming that uses like a lot of sort of logical processes that are higher at higher end. I would argue that that isn’t higher intelligence because to solve those logical puzzles and to work through them and all the interconnectedness of it, I would say then yes, that would be higher intelligence, but if it’s things like writing policies and what not and they’re just damn good policies, maybe not.

Tom:                      Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely, it’s difficult isn’t it? At what point does knowledge become intelligence or what point does intelligence even arise at all?

Mitch:                   You could argue that like the intelligence is the fundamental skills that we then use. But it’s one of those things that I love. I think a lot of people would find it insulting for you to tell them be like your intelligence is capped. If you turn around to someone in the street with maths, you can only go to a certain point and then you can’t, you can’t, you can’t progress.

Tom:                      I mean it’s not a, it’s not like I’d be saying it to them as oh my God, you are bad at this thing or

Mitch:                   no, no, no you’re not. You’re not even saying it as a demeaning way. You’d be saying it is like a breaking it to them. Like me, literacy is probably my weakest point and if someone turned around to me went like you are, you are currently at your limit. Like you just, you’re at your limit. I’d be like, okay cool. This is how it’s going to be. But I think a lot of people who do certain things they could get a bit. Yeah.

Tom:                      Yeah. But then again, it depends on how that specific person takes looks at intelligence or knowledge, because they can, they can be like, Oh let’s just go and learn some more. No. Okay. But then are you losing something else?

Mitch:                   That that is the other argument they have was like, well there’s, there’s two different arguments. One argument is like your intellect intelligence is directly related to time and you can only put a certain amount of time in the day towards certain things. So there are going to be things that are going to be lost and you’re not going to be capped cause you’re not going to invest in it because you’re investing your time in something else.

Tom:                      Okay. That makes sense.

Mitch:                   It’s like you see athletes a lot you won’t see. You tend to not see athletes that are good at everything because you can’t be like good at like running and also sprinting and also judo and also sort of badminton and racket sport. You specialize because you don’t have enough time. And the body can’t cope with all those different things. So that’s where you used to be like, okay, your intelligence is this, which is why you do like IQ test may not work. Because as I think it was like Einstein, I may be like doing a QI or getting the wrong quote here of asking your fish to climb a tree is a bad indicator when you compare a monkey to climbing a tree and then you ask a fish and you’re like, well the fish is dumb cause he can’t climb the tree. You’re comparing it on the wrong scale.

Tom:                      With that then you’re saying that in intelligence has different, you can be intelligent in more than one thing. And the IQ is more intelligence of how much and how fast or

Mitch:                   Yeah, sort of how fast you can do and the underlying skills that can be done. Like being good. Uh, um, the spatial recognition and the logic in the IQ test means that I am good at analyzing data, which coincidentally it’s been my job for the past year. Data, information analyst is something that I excelled at and I was pretty good at recognizing patterns and data because my, my brain is that way inclined. So I was going to do better on the IQ test and that because I’ve been trained for the past year, so yeah.

Tom:                      Yeah. I wonder how different it would have been if you’d done it, if you’d not been doing that for the past year, how different would it have wave because it’s not even you’re going to school and you know, you said was it two points, two, three points a year of school?

Mitch:                   Education.

Tom:                      Your specifically training at that one task, which the IQ test looks at. So that’d be interesting to see.

Mitch:                   Speaking about training with intelligence, I had a look at, if you, this is my second point, if you could train your intelligence. And you can apparently, according to the research that I conducted did with actually a lot of sources say that you aren’t capped, your intelligence isn’t capped and you can actually train it to be better. Even adults that have a lot of like um, in the head that it’s not crystal. You have crystal and you’ve got like plastic and one like the plastic you can mold and remold so you can actually get better as it. One of the like certain training tasks that you can do to make your sort of overall intelligence better. And one of them is called the N-back task. Have you, have you heard of this?

Tom:                      No, I didn’t come across that.

Mitch:                   So it’s N hyphen back task. It was developed more than half a century ago by the 1950s by Kirschner who is a, I think it was a pscyhologist at the time. So pretty much what it is is you get shown a letter and then another letter and another letter and another letter. And then you have to decide whether you saw the same letter a certain amount of letters ago. So for a three bar, three back task, you have to be able to work out if he saw this letter that appeared was the same letter three sequences ago. Okay. So it just keeps going through and keep showing you new letters and they obviously the old letters disappear. And if you think that you’ve seen that letter before and it was three letters before that you hit m for memory and if it’s not you hit n. And then as you go on you kind of get better at being able to memorize how many letters ago was. And I tried it and it was very, very difficult.

Tom:                      I bet!

Mitch:                   It was very difficult. I was trying to keep like a string of letters about 10 letters long in my head. Even though you only need three. I was trying to like remember like it was like p t a h. Okay. I was like okay so n for those. Then it was like h a t h. And I was like okay, there’s another h m and it flashes green if you get it right. And I was like, oh, I got one out of 20 [Laughter]. But you get like one, you get like end can be one and can be two and can be three of obviously N can be one is like the lower end is the letter before the same letter, but then two is, was the letter two before. Um, and then three gets a bit, so on and so forth.

Tom:                      You work your way up. But I think that what you’re talking about with the cap, okay. So yes, in that sense you can train to get better, but there surely must be a physiological cap.

Mitch:                   Oh, apparently not, there’s no research

Tom:                      Where you improve at some things and maybe decline somewhere else, but if that were the case, people could just get infinitely smart and we know that’s not, we know that doesn’t happen.

Mitch:                   Yep. Okay. Then then do you have the, the point of intelligence where, environment you’re talking about then in the farming part of it, which is to do with, um, once patients to learn is a part of the intelligence. So do you, do you have the patience to sit there and do this training? Do you have the motivation and like the discipline to continually do this to make like to get smarter.

Tom:                      Okay, makes sense. Yeah.

Mitch:                   And I think a lot of people that go to like do a PhDs and masters in like physics in higher things, they are far mentally attuned to be able to have more patience to learn and go high, if that makes sense. And deal with more difficult task.

Tom:                      Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I’d agree with you there. I wanted to mention AI quickly. I know we did a whole episode on it, so before and you know it, it’s something that’s very unknown because we’ve not ever been there in technology, artificial intelligence or you know, smart artificial intelligence. And we’re very much influenced by, I guess the only reference we have to AI becoming smart is pop culture where nine times out of 10 it is something going horribly wrong. The terminator or 2001: a space odyssey, matrix, Genesis. Is like a new one on Netflix. It’s not amazing, but it serves well for this example.

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Subtle shade.

Tom:                      [Laughter]. Come on Netflix, you can do better than this. And I mentioned the Kurzweil singularity in the episode, which is the point by where which they think or Kurzweil is a neuroscientist and he predicts that by 2030 is his latest estimate that robots will be as in as intelligent as humans. But I think the, I’ll say the same thing as I did then. Okay. There’ll be very, it’s like you were saying with the sports personalities, they’re very specifically attuned to a certain thing like, these robots may have great mathematical or chess-playing abilities. Like when IBM’s deep blue beat Gary Kasparov, you know, they thought, oh the, the revolution of robots is here. And recently in recent years they won the game go, which I can’t even begin to explain to you how that game works is basically like chess on steroids. A just type in go game and there’s like, the way that works is basically go game. There are an essentially an infinite amount of moves. There are more possible moves in that game than there are atoms in the universe. Okay. And robots have started to beat humans and humans thought it was impossible for that to happen because it, even when you speak to the champion players of the world, half of their moves are gut feelings rather actual like in chess, logic base moves. Uh, but yet because a computer can calculate the moves that give it the most possibility in the future, they win. But at the same time it can’t move the pieces itself unless it’s in like a VR world, you know, it has to have something that moves the pieces. And so people are, you know, very afraid of artificial intelligence, I think. But I think it’s not something to be afraid of once we get, you know, legislation in place and all of that kind of thing. But there, it is being used at the minute for some scary things. I don’t know if you’ve heard of any, this kind of stuff. So these scientists, were getting an artificial intelligence to categorize dogs like is this picture of a dog or not?

Mitch:                   Google’s smart lense, kinda thing?

Tom:                      Yeah. And I think it got to a Husky and it said that it was a wolf, so I think it was doing breeds of dogs or something. Anyway, animals, it got to a, Husky now identified it as a wolf. So they were like, oh, why is this happened? So they broke down the algorithm and they looked at the picture and they got it to show which part of the picture it focused on. And the only part of the picture it focused on was not the dog at all, not the Husky, but the snow in the background. The computer went ah, snow. There are no dogs really in the snow, so it must be a wolf. But the researchers had never given it the instructions that Wolves live in the snow or that’s where you generally find wolves rather than dogs. So that was pretty scary. And they also use artificial intelligence a lot in like criminal, whether they’re likely to re-offend and that kind of thing. And in America they’re using one at the minute that is highly racist. It categorizes black people as 77% more likely to re-offend just because of the color of their skin. But they still use it because it’s just more not efficient it’s quicker than coming. People do it. Yeah. So they still use it and that that is the kind of problems with I guess artificial intelligence. That I wanted to cover quickly since we’ve done a whole episode on it before I won’t dive into a dive into that.

Mitch:                   Yeah, that’s fair.

Tom:                      So the oh I think as I said earlier, the thing that I kind of came down to fill being intelligence maybe was being social, cause you can like, you know, is our ability to learn socially over generations improve things. As I said about the neanderthals. Neanderthals, they can’t do that. Animals mainly live in, you know, their world. Whether you kind of go on instinct or what their mother, father or grandparents told them. There’s not really much further than that. And it’s always word of mouth. Whereas we can literally look at writing. Or instructions. And in ants, you know, you look at aunts individually and one ant is incredibly, incredibly stupid, but a colony of ants or wire, one of the most smart things in nature, I would say. The hive mind where not one ant has intelligence, but they’re, they’re kind of making a group decision based on the collective accumulated knowledge of the area rather than the single, and it will happen through the passing of pheromones and they’re not actively making a decision. It’s just kind of operating kind of like the internet or like a, I guess an artificial intelligence would by itself. And but yeah, so that’s a type of intelligence I guess. I Dunno. Would you think that is being intelligent or like an ant colony?

Mitch:                   No, no. I don’t think that’s intelligence because it’s instinct.

Tom:                      Okay. So because it’s not like a decision being made.

Mitch:                   That is another side of the argument as it is, if it’s is instinct intelligence or not?

Tom:                      I think intelligence derived as Darwin said, from instinct rather than instinct being intelligence.

Mitch:                   So that’s a no to your question. If it’s derived from, then it can’t be.

Tom:                      Okay. Fari enough. That is true sir. Lord and savior genius 147. [Laughter].

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Never gunna live that down now.

Tom:                      Never. But yeah, I think that is all I have kind of written down here to cover. Have you got anything?

Mitch:                   Nope, that is that is it for me.

Tom:                      Fantastic alright, so thank you everyone for listening. If you want to check out all the latest goings on, you can, head to you can find us on Facebook and Twitter by searching @conductscience. If you want to ask a question, suggest a guest, suggest the topic, please use the #ConductScience. If you’re listening on iTunes, Spotify, whatever platform you’re listening on, if you can give us a rating, preferably of a five star end that would be fantastic.

Mitch:                   [Laughter]. Forcing the five star out.

Tom:                      [Laughter]. Oh, of course. I need to, I need to drop it. I need to drop the request. Uh, it just helps us out. Absolutely massively. And yeah, that’d be absolutely fantastic. Share it with everyone your know, on Friday is the Method Section is releasing: into the unknown. Next week we will be covering paradoxes. I presume this is gonna be another mind bending and really hard to research, but it’ll be fun to learn about. So that is all we’ve got time for this week. Thank you very much for joining us. And we shall see you guys. A-next time

Mitch:                   Ciao for now.

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